Q3 2023 Mace Security International Inc Earnings Call

Participants

Rem Belzinskas; Corporate Controller; Mace Security International, Inc.

Sanjay Singh; Chairman & CEO; Mace Security International, Inc.

Andrew Shapiro; Analyst; Lawndale Capital Management, LLC

Presentation

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Mace Security International third quarter 2023 earnings call. (Operator Instructions) Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded.
I would like to hand the conference over to your first speaker, Mr. Rem Belzinskas. Please go ahead, sir.

Rem Belzinskas

Thank you, Maddy, and good afternoon. Joining me on the call today is Sanjay Singh, the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Mace. Please visit corp.mace.com under Newsroom where you can find additional materials, including the Q3 2023 financial statements and the OTC Quarterly Report for the third quarter ended September 30, 2023, as well as our Q3 2023 Financial Overview Presentation.
Before proceeding, I would like to point out that certain statements and information during this conference call may constitute forward-looking statements and are based on management's expectations and information currently in the possession of management.
When used during our conference call the words or phrases such as will likely result, are expected to, will continue, as anticipated, estimated, projected, and intended to, or similar expressions are intended to identify forward-looking statements.
Such statements are subject to certain risks, known and unknown, and uncertainties, including, but not limited to, economic conditions, limit of capital resources, and disruptions in domestic international supply chains.
Such factors could materially adversely affect Mace's financial performance. It could cause Mace's actual results for the future periods to differ materially from any opinions or statements expressed during this call.
I will now turn the call over to Sanjay for some comments about the third quarter.

Sanjay Singh

Thank you, Rem. Good afternoon, everyone. The third quarter was very, very challenging. While Q2 '23 sales were slightly higher than Q1 '23 sales, that trend did not continue in Q3. Sales decreased across the base business and retail channels. The feedback that we received is that consumers have scaled back purchases.
Net sales declined by approximately $1 million or 40.2% when compared with Q3 2022, and 10% when compared to Q2. Most of the decreases year over year were driven by lower revenues from two customers and the remaining decreases from our base business. The decrease versus Q2 were mostly the result of a significant back-to-school order from one of our customers in that quarter.
Net sales for the third quarter of 2023 also reflect the impact of the loss of one significant customer, which accounted for $306,000 of the sales decrease in the third quarter of 2023. Sales increased by 43% on the company's e-commerce platform, which partially offset some of the overall sales decrease.
Over the last couple of quarters, in light of the slowness in organic business, we accelerated our focus to drive new business, both from new customers and new products and services. We started a partnership with US Lawshield and Legal Heat earlier this year to provide both online and in-person non-lethal and safety training.
The program was officially launched on November 1, and to date, we have received inquiries from a large city's transportation department that would like to train 1,000 of their employees and of college campus security, healthcare facilities, as well as queries from civilians.
We expect to see a healthy demand for the service. We're running marketing campaigns to move our Mobile Pepper Spray with our F3 Defense partners who are also working on a new type of pepper spray design that will be priced in the $70 to $80 range that would be suited for higher price point retailers. Additionally, we are working on another co-branded product that we cater to the hospitality and school and college segment.
Lastly, we're in the final stages of launching a new product, just co-branded, that will be in a completely new segment in the non-lethal space.
Back to the financials. The adjusted EBITDA loss was $318,000 for the quarter ended September 30, 2023, compared with adjusted EBITDA income of $124,000 in the quarter ended September 30, 2022. We lowered SG&A costs in Q3 2023 by 9% when compared to the same period in the prior year.
On October 20, 2023, we closed a three-year $2 million line of credit for the commercial asset-based lending. Given the drastic drop in sales, we have identified further cost reductions to drive to a breakeven EBITDA as well as to convert excess inventory to cash.
I will now turn the call over to Rem to comment on the third quarter 2023 financial results.

Rem Belzinskas

Thank you, Sanjay. Our third quarter 2023 net sales were approximately $1.5 million, a 40% decrease from $2.5 million in our third quarter sales of 2022. Retail sales decreased 67.6%. International sales increased 41%. Business-to-business sales decreased 74%. And our e-commerce platform sales increased 43%, compared with the same period in 2022.
Gross profit for the third quarter 2023 decreased $511,000 or 53% from our third quarter 2022 results. Our margin rate in the third quarter of 2023 was 30%, down eight points from margin rate of 38% for the same quarter of 2022. Margins in the third quarter 2023 over the third quarter 2022 due to decreased sales volume, unfavorable channel sales mix, higher component costs due to inflation, and lower plant efficiencies.
SG&A expenses for the third quarter 2023 decreased by $59,000 to approximately $1 million or 69% of net sales. The decrease in SG&A expenses is attributable to a $46,000 reduction in salaries and related benefits, $53,000 decrease in advertising expense, partially offset by a $42,000 increase in e-commerce platform fulfillment costs due to higher e-commerce platform sales.
Our lower sales volume and higher manufacturing costs resulted in a net loss for the quarter of $771,000, which was down from our net loss of $233,000 in the third quarter of 2022. Third quarter adjusted EBITDA was a loss of $318,000, down $442,000 from an adjusted EBITDA income of $124,000 in the third quarter of 2022. The decline in the bottom line is primarily attributable to lower revenues.
Our line of credit borrowings stayed constant during the third quarter of '23 at $1.5 million. Cash increased to $754,000 at September 30, 2023, compared with cash of $62,000 at December 31, 2022, primarily due to the closing of a $590,000 convertible debt offering on July 27, 2023.
As we've mentioned previously, with the supply chain delays experienced in 2021 and early 2022, we had inventory of orders that were in progress and could not be halted without a financial cost implications on future inventory order fulfillment. As such, we continue to have a lot of our cash tied up in convertible and salable inventory.
Inventory decreased by $130,000 compared to December 31, 2022. Inventory increased nominally during the third quarter of 2023, compared with the balance at the end of the second quarter of 2023 due to the company converting components into readily marketable finished goods during the third quarter of 2023.
I'll now turn the call back to Sanjay for some additional comments before we take questions.

Sanjay Singh

Thank you, Rem. The results, as you can see, are extremely disappointing. However, we are focusing our efforts on new business opportunities and are targeting $13.1 million of new business the next few quarters. For additional details, you can find this in our investor deck on our website on corp.mace.com.
Two of those retailers have expressed a very strong interest in carrying our products. The revenues from these new opportunities will be key to our financial results. We're going to be laser-like focused on these initiatives.
A quick reminder, we will not address or respond to any questions pertaining to our ongoing strategic alternatives project. The company has retained financial and legal advisers to assist with this process.
At this time, I will stop and open the lines for questions. I would ask each caller to limit themselves to one question with one follow-up to allow everyone a chance to participate. If we have additional time, we'll try to get you back into the queue.
Maddy, please open the line for questions.

Question and Answer Session

Operator

Thank you. (Operator Instructions) We'll take our first question from.

Andrew Shapiro

Hi. I know the Board has stopped taking cash compensation a while ago, but I was wondering in light of what is now the 11th straight quarter, not months, 11th straight quarter of year-over-year revenue declines, why hasn't management taken a salary cut? Don't you think it's about time to put them on the table?

Sanjay Singh

Andrew, management has taken a salary cut.

Andrew Shapiro

I guess, it's never been disclosed. We don't get to see that, but I appreciate that that has occurred. At last quarter's call in August, you said we should see continued reduction in inventory as the buildup for Dollar General would be further moved out, yet the inventory levels didn't drop and instead slightly increased.
So can you expand on what's going on for your days inventory number? Do you know skyrocket due to -- obviously, the sequential sales levels from prior quarter dropping 15% and the inventory being slightly up. Can investors expect to see reduction of inventory levels in the present Q4, and can you provide some color to support that representation?

Sanjay Singh

Yeah. So inventory reduction is one of our initiatives. There are -- there's a couple of factors that drove inventory to go up slightly. One of them is -- was a large private label order that actually shipped out in the fourth quarter that was produced in the third quarter. I think it shipped in the first week of the fourth quarter. It's a pretty large order.
Second, the buildup of Dollar General inventory based on the initial forecast -- our incoming orders are not in line with that forecast. So 40% of the stores do not have our products yet and our team is working with the buyers at Dollar General to make that happen. So there's a buildup of Dollar General orders as well.
The third is, a lot of our production is based on historical demand. And as the demand dropped, it caused another issue for us because the forecasting is not super dynamic, just given the lead times. Our lead times can be 6 to 12 weeks, in some cases, for -- components are coming in from China, so you have to plan ahead based on historical demand.

Andrew Shapiro

I have many other questions. I'll back out. Please come back to me.

Operator

We do not have any -- I apologize. We will take our next question from.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. Well, I'm going to ask a few more here. Last call, in the middle of Q3, you cited early in the year revenue shortfalls were partially on product SKU expansion delays to retailers. But that expansion had finally taken place and it was now expanding at -- a total of four retailers. But here again, we got flat to down sequential quarterly revenues in the consumer sales channel and with such a sizable increase in our e-commerce, it's clearly a substantial drop at retail and highlight at least that there's one big retailer.
Can you reconcile and provide accountability for all these mishaps that seem to repeatedly trip you guys up? You said 90 days with sufficient time period for sell through visibility to materialize, and it's been 90 days. So can you provide sell through POS experience and if and when you expect the restocking orders on the new SKUs supposedly have been now shipped?

Sanjay Singh

So in terms of the product expansion, those SKUs are seeing -- we are seeing orders for the SKUs. In general, if you back out the back-to-school order, quarter over quarter, Q3 versus Q2 would have been up. But we had a pretty sizable back-to-school order for Dollar General in Q2 that did not repeat in Q3.
In terms of the year over year -- I mentioned one of the retailers, we lost them. We're trying to get them back with one of our new products. We -- that accounted for 30% of the decrease. It was about $306,000 out of the $1 million decrease.
The second big one was about $400,000, and this particular customer has been -- we've been seeing decreases for the last few quarters. They peaked at the end of third quarter of '21. They've been paring back inventories since them.
With regards to the other retailers, those retailers were down in total. Total orders were down with some of our other retailers like Dick's and Ace and other folks that we do business with. We also saw some of our larger base business customers who were complaining that they had way too much inventory and they were not going to place replenishment orders this quarter. So between the retail and base business, we saw dramatic changes in sentiment in terms of replenishment orders.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. So with Dollar General, which is a new one, and you had the sizable back-to-school order in Q2 and all that. Okay. You said three months ago, your plan is to be initially in 10,000 of the 18,000 stores and the ramp up was nowhere near the number that you had expected. And you've just said now, I think you have -- you're only in 40% or 4,000 of the 10,000 you expect, or you're 40% more to go. Please clarify that. And --?

Sanjay Singh

40% more to go.

Andrew Shapiro

When do you expect to -- you have 4,000 more to go or 6,000 more to go?

Sanjay Singh

40%. Yeah. 4,000 stores more to go.

Andrew Shapiro

More to go. So you're in 6 of that -- of your initial 10. Okay. And when do you expect to get into the remaining 4,000? And can you provide your general sell-through experience and restocking order experience from the back to school, the initial stocking you did in the early stores that you got placed in? How is that going?

Sanjay Singh

The sell -- the restocking orders are nowhere close to our forecast, number one. This was a forecast that we received from Dollar General. Then secondly, what we have found from visits to Dollar General stores, in the Cleveland area, what we found from the store managers is that the inventory is sometimes sitting -- it's not even out in the store. It's sitting in boxes because they are understaffed.
The third is, we received feedback that there are many, many stores that are being reorganized or that have been hit with not being in compliance with hazardous materials and other types of issues. So there's a general focus there with the Dollar General leadership team, they've even had a better change right at the top. So that's the feedback that we're receiving from our reps who work very closely with the buyer.

Andrew Shapiro

All right. And then did the new product videos for Walmart.com get accepted and uploaded by its buyer, which is where you were at three months ago, and was there any impact or improvement in their POS sales from that? And additionally, have you presented your new and different product offerings to Walmart buyers and what was the feedback or status of that?

Sanjay Singh

We have provided all the images. The status remains unchanged since the last quarter. We are -- it's still in the hands of the buyer, but there has been a buyer change and we are going to be sitting with the buyer hopefully before the end of the year. We've asked for a meeting before the end of the year.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. I have more questions. I'll back out, but please come back to me.

Operator

Okay. As of right now, there are no other questions in the queue. (Operator Instructions) Andrew Shapiro.

Andrew Shapiro

All right. Okay. I'll ask a few more in here before backing out again. It doesn't look like there are many others speaking out on the call. On this new working capital loan, it's secured by all the assets of the company. I just wanted to confirm there are no personal guarantees or anything else that were needed to secure this new three-year line of credit. Is that correct?

Sanjay Singh

That's correct.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. And what has -- I think that you've mentioned at least as of September 30, you had $1.5 million borrowed under the line. What has the company borrowed under the line at present and given your working capital balances at the same time, what is the total credit available? Do you have the full $2 million and thus $500,000 available or is it some number less than $2 million?

Sanjay Singh

The total availability is $1.5, and then we have Board raised funds.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. So while that's a $2 million credit line on a three-year term, based on your working capital balances right now, you're at the borrowing limit. Is that right?

Sanjay Singh

I'm sorry, can you please repeat that?

Andrew Shapiro

It's a $2 million line, but it's based on your working capital balances. So what I'm trying to confirm is, while you have $1.5 borrowed, do you have $500,000 available, or based on your working capital balances, the availability is somewhere less than $2 million?

Sanjay Singh

The availability is less than $2 million at the moment.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. And what is the availability? Is it at $1.5 million? You're fully drawn on what's available right now?

Rem Belzinskas

Our availability changes day-to-day and there are days --

Andrew Shapiro

Just give me a -- Okay. So give me kind of like a -- some kind of point, you know whatever. Is it $200,000, $300,000?

Rem Belzinskas

Right. At any point in time, approximately $1.5 million.

Andrew Shapiro

I understand that's what's drawn, but is that what's available as well?

Rem Belzinskas

It would be a number that would be similar, could be a little more.

Andrew Shapiro

So there's not much room, basically?

Rem Belzinskas

That's correct.

Andrew Shapiro

There's not much room until you make more sales and thus have real borrowable receivables added to it.

Sanjay Singh

That is correct.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. That's what I want to get at. All right. What individuals participated in the grant of the 600,000 options that occurred during this recently reported quarter and were management options that were granted performance based?

Sanjay Singh

Rem?

Rem Belzinskas

We're being asked to provide a list of the participants in the convertibles.

Andrew Shapiro

Well, let's be more general. You've got -- you have -- Directors don't get paid cash, they get paid equity, but I think that's actual -- it's regular stock. So senior management got the bulk of the 600,000, where are going with this? Is it just one person getting 600,000 new options and were these options vesting over performance or just time vesting?

Rem Belzinskas

Our options vest over five years and the recipients of the 600,000 that you're referring to were the Board members.

Andrew Shapiro

It's just -- that's just the Board compensation.

Rem Belzinskas

That's correct.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. Your product roadmap, slide 11, I have a few questions about that. So Project K, which was due in the quarter ended that you've just reported, has a $500,000 a year -- you once targeted revenue for the DTC market. It's now Q4, can you say what Project K is or was?

Sanjay Singh

Yeah, these are our value kits. So we're taking a look at our inventory, and we are offering these in 3 packs, 5 packs, and 10 packs.

Andrew Shapiro

Project SG, for this quarter, has $1 million year one target revenue. For the DTC market, it's a $350-unit, big unit price. Can you provide more info on this product? Is this the vehicle perimeter defense unit.

Sanjay Singh

No, it's different. I'll just have to leave it at that since we don't have a finalized agreement yet. We're in the final throes of it, but I'd just like to leave it at that.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. And -- but it's still on target for Q4, is that you're having something here?

Sanjay Singh

Yeah. We're targeting a closing of the agreement this quarter. Yeah.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. Then I'll look forward to seeing it when it happens. Project S, for this quarter, $250,000 year one target revenue, and this is for the educational market. Can you provide more info on this product?

Sanjay Singh

I cannot. We have not closed that agreement yet either.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. Is it still expected for this quarter?

Sanjay Singh

Sure is. Yeah.

Andrew Shapiro

Is it still expected for this quarter?

Sanjay Singh

It is, and we're working towards that --

Andrew Shapiro

All right. I'm not going to do all of them -- I'm not going to do all of them, but I do want to do one last one, which is Project 4. Presumably, this being a slide you are presenting here in mid-November, your Q1 timing projection is fresh, but can you give some more color on the product or the accurate timing of when revenues would start being generated and all of this? In particular, are all the components in country or still on a boat or overseas and subject to future supply chain excuses?

Sanjay Singh

I cannot offer any further details on it since we do not have an agreement yet.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. These agreements you're (multiple speakers)

Sanjay Singh

We are targeting a release of the product in the first quarter. Meaning, selling the product online and offering it to very specific retailers in the first quarter.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. And so this -- does not have a lot of dependence for overseas supply.

Sanjay Singh

It does have dependence on overseas supply.

Andrew Shapiro

I wondered that. Okay. And touching on that issue, when your revenue shortfall problem is supply chain, it's really the costly capital limitations on stockpiling inventory of long transit time product -- long transit time product shipments. And frankly, at the rate of interest that our working capital line of credits on it, we can better do -- get that inventory level down, converted, and get that costly working capital line of credit, which I'm happy, mind you, that you -- we got a three-year duration on it. But to get that thing pay down because it's not cheap, right?
So what's the status of resolving supply issues and finding alternative sourcing preferably closer to the US? And have you achieved any success in onshoring more of the company's supplier and logistics?

Sanjay Singh

A significant amount of time and resources were invested in securing this ABL. And to find a new supplier, the domestic supplier would require upfront tooling costs depending on the status of our existing tooling. So I think the first thing we need to do here is increase our cash flow before we can look at moving that in-shore. It is on our list, but we're constrained at the moment to do that.

Andrew Shapiro

So there's a capital investment Mace have to undertake in order to shorten the supply line.

Sanjay Singh

Yeah.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. Just wanted to better understand that. You described in your slide number five that a single current customer accounted for $170,000 or most of the sequential quarterly revenue decline in the retail segment. I think you made comments in your introductory script. Can you again expand on or provide what's going on with this customer and why should we or when should we expect this customer to return to former purchasing levels?

Sanjay Singh

So this -- we've had this customer for a long time. They are -- they went with a different option, and they were seeking more innovation from us, they didn't like our -- the Pocket -- the formerly Pocket Hero introduction, they did not care for that. So having received their feedback, the one that is being targeted for a release in the first quarter of '24, we think that that would be a pretty good candidate for this customer.

Andrew Shapiro

Have they given you feedback on this new product yet?

Sanjay Singh

No. They have not given feedback, but we have been provided feedback from our sales rep who has talked to the buyer, and that's what I'm basing that on.

Andrew Shapiro

So is this the same sales rep that thought the Pocket Hero was a good idea for AutoZone.

Sanjay Singh

No. The buyer liked it. It just -- they placed it in a very different area than we expected, so the sell through, initially, was good. They moved it to a different area and then the sell through declined. So the buyers blessed the product. That's how that product got placed.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. I have two more questions. I don't want to dominate unless there's no one in the queue. Either you can tell me whether that's the case before I get back -- go out or I'll go out and just let me back in. I got a few more.

Operator

This is the operator. There are no other questions in the queue.

Andrew Shapiro

All right. I will ask a few more here to get through my list. Let's talk a little bit about some of the new business and new customer stuff. All right. I see the new dog lease with air horn product is here. It's arrived. And it's being offered for sale on mace.com. When did you start making sales, what's been the response so far, and where and when will you offer the product beyond our e-commerce site?

Sanjay Singh

So the product was on site probably a couple of months ago and that's when we started -- we updated our website to reflect that and we have offered it to other retailers as well. And we -- a regional retailer in the Cleveland area is very interested in carrying it. We are waiting for their purchase order and then we are also offering it on our store on Amazon.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. I went there today, and I couldn't find it. So maybe I punched in the wrong prompts to find that. But it's now being offered on your store and Amazon as well. And how have the sales proceeded on this product versus your expectations and inventory plans?

Sanjay Singh

It's been slow, but that's pretty typical with new products. We don't get a significant amount of sessions online on mace.com. So we didn't expect a significant amount of sales on mace.com, but we do expect a significant amount of sales on our Amazon store. And that -- the technical details of all of that was completed just in the last few weeks. So it will take some time for the campaigns to kick in and for the product to move.

Andrew Shapiro

Well, when I searched for it today, literally this morning, I didn't see it on Amazon. But I saw it on your website. Didn't know if you had it in any retailers yet or what your plans are, when you were going to do it. Are you using this also as a potential entre point to get into some of the pet supply verticals as well as offering your K9 Muzzle spray and getting a hook there?

Sanjay Singh

Yeah. Yes, to both.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. On your last call, your distribution agreement with public company Surge Pays and its huge network of corner stores, bodegas, gas stations, et cetera, had yet to generate any orders 90 days later here. What's the status of this arrangement so far? Are you now in the catalog? Are catalog pass-through orders coming through?

Sanjay Singh

So they did update their devices to show our products, but that just happened a couple of weeks ago. And so it's been a pretty delayed implementation, but they ran into a technology issue that they've been trying to resolve. But I received feedback from our sales team that that is now resolved and is being offered.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. And you've seen any orders yet? I mean, we were going to be waiting to see any --?

Sanjay Singh

(multiple speakers) any orders. Yeah.

Andrew Shapiro

Yeah. We're going to be dependent on (inaudible) which I doubt, I doubt it will be the case until we are able to generate demand pull through whatever digital marketing and other things you guys choose to do.
So let's move to some other area where I have seen you trying to market it and that is our US Lawshield/Legal Heat training initiative. On the last call you updated your forecast for timing revenues to be ramping up in the current Q4 and you're in the middle of Q4. Has that occurred yet? Can you provide color on the ramp-up and how the business model and margins will work?

Sanjay Singh

So the US Lawshield had an issue with their payment processor, and they were not able to add our courses online until November 1. And the way the workflow is organized is we produce leads and Legal Heat produces leads, Legal Heat offers in-person training, US Lawshield provides online classes, and that's their platform that -- it's seamless.
So we have turned over every single lead that we have had over to US Lawshield or to Legal Heat depending on it's an online versus classroom, and those training classes are being organized. So we should start seeing some reporting of some revenues, but that's where we are at the moment.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. So it sounds like it would be high margin revenue when it comes and pass through to you?

Sanjay Singh

It would be high margin. Yeah. Above 25% EBITDA.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. Another co-branding partner, F3. On the last call you summarized delays from initial expected revenues all the way into current Q4, have you been making sales and delivering now the vehicle perimeter defense product in the current Q4? And you had a meaningful year one goal, do you still feel the market and goals for the first 12 months selling the product are achievable or they need to be scaled back?

Sanjay Singh

We think the product is -- we can achieve those targets, but there is quite a bit of work to do, so we are actually having weekly calls with our partners. We have seen sales of our items online and we've had them plenty of units sold online, but nowhere close to where we would like it to be.
We are now targeting larger buyers. So trucking groups, folks like that. And we will also be going back to another retailer that we had talked to about a different product, and this is an automotive retailer, to gauge their interest on this product.

Andrew Shapiro

In your press release, you always talk about this, you back stuff out. And one of the line items is you have transition personnel and temporary labor, except you have transitioned personnel and temporary labor on a recurring basis. So how transitional and temporary is that SG&A expense and should it really be pulled out?

Sanjay Singh

Well, so the big one in the transitional expense is our Controller role has been open for a while and we are aiming to fulfill it because Rem wants to retire. So we're actively looking to fill that role.

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. But arguably, the Controller function is an ongoing need and demand and SG&A cost of the company. So if there's anything that's transitional or temporary, it would only be the premium amount, I guess, you may be paying to Rem versus what you would otherwise staff the position for, it won't be the full (multiple speakers) transitional.

Sanjay Singh

That is correct. Well, we've also had some strategic alternative-type related expenses that are in there as well.

Andrew Shapiro

As part of temporary and transitional personnel, is that right? Okay.

Sanjay Singh

Rem, I -- which line is that on with -- the strategic alternative costs.

Andrew Shapiro

Well, I know you break that out separately. That's all.

Rem Belzinskas

That's correct. They are lines broken out.

Andrew Shapiro

Anyway, it's more of a point of style and transparency, is the question, not really the actual amount here. Your NOLs, even after a sizable amount of tax loss carryforward expired this last year, unfortunately, new losses still have our tax NOL at $50 million or more to shield future income. But it's going to need pre-tax income to monetize and use this asset? What can and are you doing to create 100% margin royalty streams from monetizing the valuable Mace Brand name?

Sanjay Singh

I'm sorry, Andrew, can you please repeat that?

Andrew Shapiro

We got a bit $50 million tax NOL still. Okay. We got this big tax NOL. We need pretax income to monetize and use the asset. A lot of my questions and a lot of your time and focus here is doing Mace Branded activities, selling revenues, going through our factory, manufacture, doing the things that we do. Okay.
So what can and are you doing to create the 100% pretax margin royalty stream that could come in by licensing out our well-known Mace Brand name in sectors or areas that we otherwise aren't going to be able to build up and compete in any time in the near term?

Sanjay Singh

Okay. Thank you. So all of those -- all the new initiatives that I've described, they're all co-branding licensing deals. Legal Heat, the F3, all the new deals that I talked about in the investor deck, the new product offerings, they are all co-branding deals licensing our name.

Andrew Shapiro

We're getting 100%. We're not getting the 100% margin on a revenue dollar collected when you sell a vehicle perimeter defense system.

Sanjay Singh

No, there is a --

Andrew Shapiro

Talking about the revenues like, real royalties. That's fine. But I'm talking like real royalties. For example, unfortunately, the Mace Brand name is licensed on a very, very long-term license to someone in the tactical area, that's why we can't use the Mace Brand name in the law enforcement market. You use Take Down or some other brand name. You don't use Mace.
Now, it happens that the buyer or the new -- the owner of that Mace Brand royalty, that Mace Brand license, had a catch-and-kill operation where they're just sitting on it and they're not selling any products with the Mace Brand name and we're not collecting 100% margin royalties. But presumably, there may be other ways that our Mace Brand name could be used in the security industry in areas of the line of business that we have no interest in, whether it's no Mace, Mace alarms, or Mace whatever, home protection services. That was another area Mace once was in and it was licensed.
It sounds like there's nothing on the horizon other than these other type of co-branding items where know there's production of a product and we share in the revenue stream, but we bear a bunch of the business cost with it.

Sanjay Singh

That is not correct. We do not, actually.

Andrew Shapiro

We don't have any business cost with the vehicle -- the perimeter defense products.

Sanjay Singh

Some of the co-branding deals that are coming up -- the product will not even (multiple speakers)

Andrew Shapiro

Okay. That's great. Well, then we just need, obviously, more of those and we frankly need those products to be marketed and sold.
Okay. I don't have any other questions for, obviously, a disappointing quarter. And at some point, you'll hit a trough and maybe we'll start executing on these things and not have excuses.

Operator

We do not have any further questions in the queue.

Sanjay Singh

All right. Thanks, Maddy. We can end the call then.

Operator

This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.

Sanjay Singh

Thank you.